glavcom.ua | 15.07.2014
[Personal translation from Russian – RD]
On July 5, the head of the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatars Refat Chubarov is not inbound to the Crimea. Following the leader of the national movement Mustafa Dzhemilev, the so-called Crimean prosecutor’s office banned him from entering the territory of Russia, consequently, in the occupied Russian Crimea, for 5 years. Commissioner for Human Rights in the self-proclaimed Republic of Crimea Lyudmila Lubin already made a statement and promised to look into the scandal. However, practice shows that such decisions are made in the Kremlin, at the local level they operate only obediently, not overturned.
Now Refat Chubarov moved to Kiev, the capital he manages Majlis holds meetings with foreign politicians. In an interview with "Commander in Chief" said the head of the Majlis of communicating with FSB remembered cooperation with Yanukovych and gave one piece of advice so-called Crimean prosecutor Natalia Poklonskaya.
On his Facebook page you called Liovochkin ideologue and conductor Majlis defeat in the Crimea. Sergey himself has commented on this allegation, expressing sympathy for the Crimean Tatars, he admitted that you’re being misled about his person. Tell us what exactly Liovochkin hurt the Crimean Tatar people?
It seems, May 14, 2010 Mustafa Cemil and I first met with the newly elected then Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych. The meeting was also attended by Mr. Liovochkin now and late Basil Dzharty, then chairman of the Council of Ministers of Crimea.
Conversation was difficult, though held at normal tones. Our position was that the Majlis of the Crimean Tatar people ready to interact with the newly elected president to restore rights issues krymsktatarskogo people and development of the Crimea, even though we are in opposition to it.
Viktor Yanukovych, almost bluntly, as a condition for interaction offered Mustafa Dzhemilev as a people’s deputy of Ukraine go to the faction of the Party of Regions of Ukraine. Mustafa Cemil refused. He argued refusal that for fruitful interaction elected president and Majlis of Crimean Tatar people and for the interests of the people do not need to force him to make that choice. This was the first crack in our relationship that eventually became a great abyss. It soon became apparent that in the depths of the AP problem was formulated on a split of the Crimean Tatar national movement, primarily through compromise Majlis and its leadership.
In August 2010, President Yanukovych brought in Crimea big meeting with the participation of a number of governors and diplomats accredited in Ukraine. On the eve of an offer from the AP to be held in the framework of this meeting and the meeting of Viktor Yanukovych with representatives of the Crimean Tatar people. As you know, ever since the presidency of Leonid Kuchma acted Council of Representatives of the Crimean Tatar people, whose members are all 33 members of the Majlis. However, it turned out that the AP completely different vision of the forthcoming meeting, to which they also invited the most odious and marginalized opponents of the Mejlis of Crimean Tatar, also known fact that the elections held then these people backed Yanukovich.
Before the meeting I held talks with Sergei Lyovochkin to convince him that we cannot reverse the role and place of Parliament, elected by the Crimean Tatars. These negotiations have not been successful then. Meeting with President Viktor Yanukovych "representatives" of the Crimean Tatars did take place, but without the participation of members of the Parliament. From that moment on, our relationship with the president of Ukraine and his entourage moved into a phase of full confrontation that, unfortunately, the authorities were immediately projected on the state’s attitude to the problems of the Crimean Tatar people. During all the years of the reign of Viktor Yanukovych funding for resettlement of Crimean Tatars was practically reduced to zero.
Incidentally, the outcasts, whom the AP in 2010, made a bet in combating Majlis, today at the forefront of new acolytes already Russian, Crimean government.
Why did not talk about Liovochkin, but only now remembered?
No more to forestall some of today’s politicians in Ukraine double approaches and standards in relation to the Crimean Tatars in the hardest time for all of us.
A few days ago you with Mustafa Dzhemilev returned from Turkey to Ukraine, where he met with Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu in this country. What was the purpose of this visit, and indeed all international visits after the occupation of the Crimea?
International aspects in the activities Mejlis we have always paid great attention. However, the events of recent months have uplifted them to a special place.
Changed and the main tasks set Majlis in its external activities. Six months ago, with the help of the international community, we are looking for this form of community involvement to assist Ukraine in the arrangement of the Crimean Tatar people and the restoration of his rights. Now we are relevant to human rights and security of people living in Russia annexed the Crimea.
We proceed from the fact that the last point in relation to the Crimea has not yet been set. Who and what would not want to see the status of Crimea, is obvious to us that the future of the peninsula can not be determined by the will and is linking with the rights of its indigenous people – the Crimean Tatars. States and international organizations that will participate in the signing of agreements for any way out of this ongoing crisis, must be aware that the future of the Crimea should not be seen only as the future of some particular area. It should be seen as the future of the territory, which will be implemented international guarantees the preservation and development of the Crimean Tatar people. That’s what we talked about during the last meeting with Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu.
How effective are these meetings, because the impression that Western policy is ineffective, and even not noticeable towards the Crimean Tatars?
We believe that the world order has collapsed as a result of the aggressive actions of the Russian Federation with regard to Ukraine, which led to the annexation of the Crimea. Today the whole world to find a way that would allow maintaining the principles of postwar Europe. However, the measures taken to resolve the crisis are not effective. Otherwise we would not have the dire consequences that we have now in the areas of Eastern Ukraine. However, if it was not, and these actions (pressure on Russia from Europe and the United States – "Commander in Chief"), we can only guess how far gone to the Russian leadership in their aggressive plans.
International pressure – this is the only mechanism that involves the Majlis, or is there any?
Of course, this is not an exclusive list. But I do not think it’s worth now talk about all the steps that we are taking on an international level, including with the involvement of the public in different countries in the resolution of our situation. I think part of the results of our actions will have benefits in the near future. Will speak about the effectiveness later.
Do you feel supported by the new leadership of Ukraine, or have forgotten about it Crimea and Crimean Tatars because of the war in the Donbass?
Now, when maximum consolidation of Ukrainian society, the consolidation of politicians, discussions on this topic in the form of recrimination will not contribute to solving the problem of de-occupation of the Crimea. Although I note that, having many of today’s data, which I had not at that time, namely the period of the end of February – mid-March, I can say that Ukraine could take other steps to effective protection of the Crimea.
While we all understand that Ukraine and the Ukrainian company came out with a very heavy losses after that did the country Yanukovych. We were very weak. Simply took advantage of this weakness is our neighbor. In my opinion, this was the only argument, which allowed him to attack at a time. The fact that the Ukrainian state, by and large, has been unable to defend themselves, I would not be considered exclusively as an accusation.
What kind of data is it?
Our international contacts allow me to think that the adoption by Ukraine of urgent measures to protect its sovereignty in the early deterioration of the situation in Crimea could be completed successfully. It is not a direct military actions have a wide range of proactive measures, which were not involved. Say, was not the immediate seizure under military guard strategic sites of the peninsula – airports, seaports, highways, were not occupied the main administrative building, were not arrested leaders of paramilitary organizations. However, the reasons for the omission should talk later.
This was not done because the new government was afraid to take responsibility?
I do not want to say so. At least I do not have all the data that they (state leaders – "Commander in Chief") and have had. I just know that we have in the Crimea had a few days in order to avoid all that happened. Military could take action on such objects, which on the one hand, were strategically important, but on the other hand – not in the center of the settlements.
However, the Black Sea Fleet based in Sevastopol itself …
It is because of the blocking. This does not mean that you had to do what they did (Russians and Crimean authorities – "Commander in Chief"), just to the gate output civil military units. There are in fact roads and other strategic locations. I know how much was captured Simferopol civilian airport. It was just mind is not understandable. He’s unguarded! I know that if there were one or two units of the Ukrainian army, no one would be there is not useful. I also know as "undertook" some military airfields in the Crimea. They have already captured a few days after landing widespread. But I really just want to talk less about the military side. We do not know what civilian casualties could be accompanied by armed clashes. I do not fully share the view of some Ukrainian politicians who believe that active defense in the Crimea would have led to large-scale attack, invade Russia over land borders in Donetsk, Kharkiv and Luhansk region.
But none of the international partners are not made it clear that Ukraine is ready to help the troops in the case of Russia’s aggression?
Hypothetically, do not want to speculate on what would happen if a major war broke out in the territory of Ukraine. But what the world would have behaved differently – no doubt about it. But how different, now it is difficult to say.
Today the Turkish vessels under flags of third countries docked at the port of Crimea. If Turkey – Ukraine’s partner and also condemns the annexation, as well as the entire civilized world, why not prevent such violations of international law?
There needs to be more systematic and consistent, above all, to our state. In all that concerns the airports and seaports, should from the very beginning of the events do not just declare them closed and use specific measures to prevent them entering the vehicles of third States. Agree before demand from other countries austerity measures themselves need to decide on the behavior of their own companies and businesses. This was not done. At the same time, I note only recently is the systematization of almost all airlines, aircraft and maritime transport, which violate international rules. I think in the near future the state will not only listen, but strictly follow international rules. This concerns, including Turkey, the government of this country will be no exception.
Since the annexation of the Crimea took 4 months, and you say that just now international partners will follow the rules …
Look, I’m about two weeks ago, one of his visits from the Crimea carried along the route Simferopol-Moscow-Kiev. I bought a ticket to a third country, because there (in Simferopol – "Commander in Chief"), it was impossible to buy a ticket to Kiev. From Simferopol to Moscow, I was flying "Aeroflot". From Moscow to Kiev UIA. In my journey I tied up two companies, one of which clearly violate international law, namely, "Aeroflot". When I was in Kiev with competent professionals talked about it, they said, they say, Refat, what do you want? Simply put, if we want to clearly fulfilled all the rules associated with the annexed territory, and we ourselves need to immediately break off all ties with the country that our territory annexed. And this, believe me, thousands of ties in various fields. For example, flying Ukrainian aircraft to third countries through the territory of Russia. If tomorrow mechanisms Ukraine will cease all operations of Russian companies, probably, and Russia will take appropriate action. But without it we will not change anything. While I understand that very often business interests and state interests do not coincide.
In early July, you, as before Mustafa Dzhemilev, forbidden to enter the territory of Russia, including the occupied Crimea, for 5 years. What other mechanisms Majlis pressure taken by the Russian side?
May 4, I received the first warning, and July 5 – second. In them it was not only me, but also that if I repeat the "offense" that they (the so-called Crimean prosecutor’s office – "Commander") are specified, then it will trigger an ad Majlis extremist organization. Probably in the near future they will try to formalize their plans.
But now Majlis still not an organization, but a movement. Maybe if you have registered it as a public organization, as in Russia want the pressure to stop?
Need to know the Russian legislation, which regulates the activities of non-governmental organizations. If we were checked in, had a lot more problems than it is now. One would have to voluntarily classify themselves as agents of foreign influence. But it is not even about that. We cannot create or under whose laws until we get a guarantee of preservation of our people and their future on their own land. And these guarantees can only give the international community, and that is to put the last point in relation to the Crimea. Once again, this point is not yet set.
If you can not prevent the Majlis, it should be split. Tried to implement this scheme under Yanukovych. Do such attempts by Russia?
Such attempts are manifested in many ways, including the fact that I, as chairman of the Mejlis, 5 years denied entry to the territory of Crimea. I cannot see his mother, I cannot come to the family.
By the way, I must say one more thing, but only in order to show the absurdity of the decision de facto authorities. As you know, I was the deputy of the Verkhovna Rada of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, elected in October 2010. According to the current in the Crimea "laws" I formally retain powers of a deputy of a representative body of the Crimea. Absurd as is the fact that in this case they could not take me to the measures that have applied. Had no right to read the warning had no right to deny entry to the territory of Crimea without prior removal of parliamentary immunity.
Same set of other actions taken by them to split the Crimean Tatar national movement, practically does not differ from those commonly taken during Yanukovych. Carried out a massive information attack, the authorities are implemented specifically people, known for their rejection of the Majlis. Such people are not so much, but they are. Obviously, the task to push the margins of the Majlis of the political process. To start. And then, depending on the behavior of our movement, it is possible to prohibit Majlis declaring his activities "extremist." They may also try to put at the head of the Mejlis of the people who, from their point of view would be consistent with the objectives and tasks of the Russian Federation.
It all happens with the help of the so-called local authorities?
Same Vladimir Konstantinov, other managers, which previously relied Kiev, quite successfully impressed on him that the Crimean Tatars are a threat to Ukraine. Now Konstantinov and Aksenov, become traitors, with exactly the same zeal and success use Crimean factor before the new authorities, but Moscow. It is clear that they, the people weak and cowardly spirit in the soul, you must continually demonstrate their loyalty to the new government.
There is pressure on the Majlis FSB?
Today in the Crimea there is no sphere, which would not aktivnichali FSB. Any publication, any news, even if it is being cautious and not openly condemns the occupation of the Crimea, on the pencil at special services. You must understand that every employee met the media security officers, and more than once. With NGOs same. Naturally, there were attempts to soul-saving conversations with the Majlis. I want to say that such meetings, these conversations have not yet are aggressive in nature, but they (FSB – "Commander in Chief") accumulate material. Any more or less conspicuous active person in the Crimea should be aware that the intelligence accurately "lifted" information about the last 15 years of his life. In particular, they show such an interest to the person if he, in their view, is dangerous.
With you how many times they met?
I had only one such meeting. It happened at the beginning of the annexation. In addition, we had a meeting with Mrs. Poklonskaya (Natalia Poklonskaya – "Attorney" Crimea – "Commander in Chief") two weeks after the referendum. She wanted to meet. We are with her in her office talking about an hour. For us, this was enough time to understand what we do with her not to talk about. This is a man who was trying to explain to me a very pathetic, what a blessing it is for the Crimea. Say, finally we went from the Nazis, and they came to the state, which will provide all its might in the Crimea normal life.
Do you think she is sincere?
I’m no doctor, but if she would ask me for advice, I would advise her to see a psychologist. Honestly.
Which one of you met FSB, under any circumstances, from what you wanted?
As for the FSB, the FSB deputy chief called me and asked for a meeting. I invited him to the Majlis. He came. We talked with his colleagues with him for about an hour. This man’s name Sergey Voronin, he hails from the Russian hinterland … introduced us SBUshnik former, which has now become FSBshnikom Vladimir Shevchenko. They came together. You know, I’m not a man dies, but I did have a full sense of deja vu after this meeting. She has already taken place after Mustafa Dzhemilev denied entry to the Crimea. So, when I asked Mr. Voronin about why you did it, forbade him to enter, he tried to distance itself from this decision. Like, it’s not they accepted. However, I asked him to be a serious conversation, because everyone understands that the FSB – an organization that stands over all processes, while others have only execute decrees. So then he told me honestly tried to explain that they could not agree with the activities of Cemil, which has supposedly anti-Russian. After all, he travels the world, meets with representatives of different countries, including Americans, who hate Russia. Now I’m almost literally quoted this fsbshnika. I still asked him whether he seriously thinks that way? The FSB said that yes, they say, the Americans – our enemies. Like, God forbid, they are our enemies in the worst sense of the word. I said to him, well, you’re sitting on the couch in the Majlis, on which sat prime ministers, chairmen of the parliaments of different countries. In this building were all accredited ambassadors in Ukraine, including guests from the United States. They wanted to understand the Crimean life, to understand the problems of the Crimean Tatars. And now you come and say that all this is not only wrong, but also dangerous, you cannot do. Can assume, and pass it to his superiors, that we have been and will be. After that I have such meetings was no more.
Whenever Majlis representatives in contact with local authorities, and we have many members of Majlis deputies are at different levels, often at the meetings is the representative of the FSB. We were different in tone conversations with them. You know, they caught up to the Crimea representatives of special services from different regions of Russia. And these representatives just cannot imagine that people can behave with power slightly uninhibited than in Russia. And for them itself uninhibited behavior interlocutor when a contact for freedom of speech, shares his own view of the situation, is a shock. I think they will need some time to adapt themselves to us.
They say that now almost in every mosque has the FSB. Is this true?
Yes, it’s true. I cannot say that right in every mosque, but in all major mosques for prayers come their representatives.
And how to identify security personnel?
While it is possible to determine a visible thereon. But eventually, I think, will look for a number of assistants who formally is a Muslim.